Limits to research?

Kjetil Kvist · 07-02-2002, 10:47 PM

I have a question to all you veterans.
It is about the limits to research.

I understand that it is a lot easier to research a group of medals with documents. But if the documents are missing: How far can you go?

To take an example: Is it possible to research a Kutuzov 2nd class just on the serial number alone?

Ed Maier · 07-03-2002, 12:53 AM

Kjetil,

There is no limit with the method of research, i.e. name verses serial number. You can get the same amount of research no matter what method you use to start the research. The limitations come with branch of service (NKVD archives are closed, and Navy takes a special request), and when the person died (the personel file of officers are kept in the locale in which they lived. When they die, the file is supposed to be sent to the central archive, but in most cases it is not transfered. So in summation, research is a crap shoot. It just depends what is there.

I hope this helps,
Ed

new world · 07-04-2002, 07:49 AM

Ed,

Thank you for info on research.

Would you please describe for the broader audience how would you go about researching the group of awards? Where the research materials are located, what's the process and the potential hurdleas along the way?

Thanks

Ed Maier · 07-04-2002, 10:46 AM

Dear New World,

There are several people who can access the archives for you. I offer one of the sevices and I believe one or two other people do as well.

The long and short of this is that we have people pull the stuff from the various archives. It is still illegal to do this in Russia and it can get tricky.

The archives that can be accessed are the Army/Air Force records and the Naval archive. KGB/NKVD records are still closed as are the Presidium records.

Only awards given to the military (Army, Air Force, Navy) after the start of W.W.II can be accessed. Before that time, all awards were authorized by an act of the Presidium and the records are kept there.

The biggest hurdle to cross in research is the unreliablenss of the researchers. They do not care if they are efficient or correct and still approach work quality like they were in the USSR.

The second problem is the inefficiency of the Russian record system when it comes to people still alive or who died after 1991. When an officer is still living, his personnel file is kept at the archive of the local military district. When he dies, the record is supposed to be sent to the central archive in Moscow. Because the system is running on flat tires, so to speak, these records almost never get to the archive and cannot be accessed.

The final problem is the mail system. I have had several batches of research lost in the mail. While I can get copies again, it causes a long delay in finishing an already long process.

I hope this helps,
Ed

scook17 · 07-04-2002, 07:14 PM

Ed,

Mail to/from Russia is always loosing stuff. As a rule, if we send anything, we always use registered (ie signed for) post as that doesn't seem to get lost as much.

Kind Regards,
Shane Cook.

Kjetil Kvist · 07-04-2002, 08:01 PM

I am really happy about the information Ed is sharing here. He gives answers to questions I have thought a lot about -

For those of us that is often more in to the story behind the order than the order itself - I find this information useful when I am planning my own collection.

Ed Maier · 07-04-2002, 08:47 PM

Shane,

Any package coming from Russia has to be signed for (at least all of the ones that I have received.). They still lose it.

Take care,
Ed

***Nota Bene*** · 07-05-2002, 07:34 PM

Ed,

One of the limitations I had encountered in my researches is that after the break up of the country they had stoped sending information to Podolsk, and I was unable to research some of the groups because the files were in the Ukraine.

Alexei

Ed Maier · 07-05-2002, 08:34 PM

Alexei,

This is true about the Personnel Files, but it should not be the case with the Award Cards and Citations. I've never not been able to get those items if the person was Army or Air Force, and I've had to research people from a lot of the more obscure Republics as well as the Ukraine.

Take care,
Ed

***Nota Bene*** · 07-07-2002, 03:46 PM

Ed,

I was talking about the personnel file, the basic documents are usually there.

Alexei

07-02-2002, 10:47 PM	#1
Kjetil Kvist Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Trondheim, Norway Age: 39 Posts: 76	Limits to research? I have a question to all you veterans. It is about the limits to research. I understand that it is a lot easier to research a group of medals with documents. But if the documents are missing: How far can you go? To take an example: Is it possible to research a Kutuzov 2nd class just on the serial number alone?

07-04-2002, 08:01 PM	#6
Kjetil Kvist Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Trondheim, Norway Age: 39 Posts: 76	Very nice I am really happy about the information Ed is sharing here. He gives answers to questions I have thought a lot about - For those of us that is often more in to the story behind the order than the order itself - I find this information useful when I am planning my own collection.

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07-03-2002, 12:53 AM	#2
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 40 Posts: 441	Kjetil, There is no limit with the method of research, i.e. name verses serial number. You can get the same amount of research no matter what method you use to start the research. The limitations come with branch of service (NKVD archives are closed, and Navy takes a special request), and when the person died (the personel file of officers are kept in the locale in which they lived. When they die, the file is supposed to be sent to the central archive, but in most cases it is not transfered. So in summation, research is a crap shoot. It just depends what is there. I hope this helps, Ed

07-04-2002, 07:49 AM	#3
new world Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC, USA Posts: 2,428	Ed, Thank you for info on research. Would you please describe for the broader audience how would you go about researching the group of awards? Where the research materials are located, what's the process and the potential hurdleas along the way? Thanks

07-04-2002, 10:46 AM	#4
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 40 Posts: 441	Dear New World, There are several people who can access the archives for you. I offer one of the sevices and I believe one or two other people do as well. The long and short of this is that we have people pull the stuff from the various archives. It is still illegal to do this in Russia and it can get tricky. The archives that can be accessed are the Army/Air Force records and the Naval archive. KGB/NKVD records are still closed as are the Presidium records. Only awards given to the military (Army, Air Force, Navy) after the start of W.W.II can be accessed. Before that time, all awards were authorized by an act of the Presidium and the records are kept there. The biggest hurdle to cross in research is the unreliablenss of the researchers. They do not care if they are efficient or correct and still approach work quality like they were in the USSR. The second problem is the inefficiency of the Russian record system when it comes to people still alive or who died after 1991. When an officer is still living, his personnel file is kept at the archive of the local military district. When he dies, the record is supposed to be sent to the central archive in Moscow. Because the system is running on flat tires, so to speak, these records almost never get to the archive and cannot be accessed. The final problem is the mail system. I have had several batches of research lost in the mail. While I can get copies again, it causes a long delay in finishing an already long process. I hope this helps, Ed

07-04-2002, 07:14 PM	#5
scook17 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 424	Ed, Mail to/from Russia is always loosing stuff. As a rule, if we send anything, we always use registered (ie signed for) post as that doesn't seem to get lost as much. Kind Regards, Shane Cook.

07-04-2002, 08:47 PM	#7
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 40 Posts: 441	Shane, Any package coming from Russia has to be signed for (at least all of the ones that I have received.). They still lose it. Take care, Ed

07-05-2002, 07:34 PM	#8
*Nota Bene* Super Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 7,185	Ed, One of the limitations I had encountered in my researches is that after the break up of the country they had stoped sending information to Podolsk, and I was unable to research some of the groups because the files were in the Ukraine. Alexei

07-05-2002, 08:34 PM	#9
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 40 Posts: 441	Alexei, This is true about the Personnel Files, but it should not be the case with the Award Cards and Citations. I've never not been able to get those items if the person was Army or Air Force, and I've had to research people from a lot of the more obscure Republics as well as the Ukraine. Take care, Ed

07-07-2002, 03:46 PM	#10
*Nota Bene* Super Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 7,185	Ed, I was talking about the personnel file, the basic documents are usually there. Alexei

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