Dating Medals by serial #

REDMAXIM2001 · 06-22-2002, 09:21 AM

Estimated friends of the forum:

I´d like info about the relation between serial # & fabrication dates of Orders & Medals. Particularly I´m interested in dating Order of Red Banner T2/V2 #75.583, Order of Red Banner T4/V1 #483.837 & Order of Red Banner of Labor T5/V2 #300.992.

In any way I´d like any kind of info about this subject. Thank you so much & Excuse, please, my HORRIBLE English.

Labor, Health & (peacefully) Revolution.

RED MAX

Eugene · 06-22-2002, 10:37 AM

Order of Red Banner T2/V2 #75.583 - august- december, 1943
Order of Red Banner T4/V1 #483.837 - 1963 - 1968
Order of Red Banner of Labor T5/V2 #300.992 - 1954-1955

***Nota Bene*** · 06-22-2002, 04:14 PM

Hola Red Max,

Bienvenido al Forum. No te hagas el modesto, tu ingles es perfecto.

Los datos que te interesen se pude encontrarlos en el libro de Kutsenko, que se titula "Ordenes de la URSS".

Un saludo,

Alexei

(I was welcoming Red Max to the forum, complimenting him on his English, and telling him about the Kutsenko book)

REDMAXIM2001 · 06-22-2002, 04:34 PM

Thank you so much, both of you, boys.

Eugene: Thank you for the info & for your time.

Nota Bene: Tu castellano si es perfecto, Gracias por la amable y calurosa bienvenida, but my English is corrupted

(Your Spanish is perfect, Thank you for that beautiful wellcome, pero mi inglés está acabado).

Red Max

CZ · 06-22-2002, 07:53 PM

Gentleman,

this may work for these orders as confering dates, but doesen't work for "Glory", "Motherland" or any other awards with serial numbers, who went in large quantities to military units (or had been produced at once: "Glory 1c").

So, less action at a certain part of a "Front" and the military units may keep more "Glory"-orders, than other units.

Specially with a "Glory 1c" or a "Motherland 2c" the serial number gives no hint about the date of confering, when roughly the guy got the award.

What do you think about this?

Regards from Vienna

alconlon · 06-22-2002, 08:12 PM

I agree with Christian in regards to Military awards.
I have a researched Order of Alexander Nevsky in which the officers record shows:

Order of Red Banner 120680 1943

Order of Red Banner 209276 1944

Order of Red Banner 70358 2/12/1945

Happy hunting.

Thanks,Al

Ed Maier · 06-22-2002, 08:51 PM

In researching over 700 groups of Soviet Orders, I have found that the serial number range/date of issue chart does not work in most cases involving any detailed infomration. The reason has already been mentioned above, and is an offshoot of the Soviet award system's structure. But in addition, you will find really strange anomolies that pop up from time to time, such as screwback Red Banners issued in late 1944 (on an active Front).

I have tried to chart the serial numbers, issue date of the award, unit of the soldier and awarding unit on a spread sheet to see if any pattern would show up. After charting the awards in about 70 groups, I gave up as it was crazy. I might try to complete this as I get some free time to see if a larger sample would reveal serial number ranges awarded by specific Fronts or units, but it will take some time.

Take care,
Ed

Doug · 06-23-2002, 12:05 AM

Ed and all,

I've had a similar thought. I've been contemplating a spreadsheet or db that would capture the following serial number-based information by order from researched orders or groups:

Serial Number
Year Awarded
Month Awarded
Branch of Service
Front
Army
Corps
Division
Regiment
Combat or Long Service

My thinking is that as most orders were distributed in preserial numbered groups, there should be some trends that become apparent. Granted, I might need a pretty large sample size. I'm thinking that after a while, we might have a better idea of what awards were awarded to what front or army during what general time period. In addition, we might be able to discern blocks of long service awards, etc.. Perhaps years from now, with enough army and VVS information, we could also make assumptions as to what serial number series are missing and assume that these are series that belong to naval or political entities.

No doubt a big undertaking that might not ultimately prove anything but it's interesting to think about.

Just another Arizonan praying for rain...

Doug

REDMAXIM2001 · 06-23-2002, 05:57 AM

Thank you 4 info & interest in that thread.

Well, I see this question about # & dates relationship is more complex that I suppossed...

Here there are three new questions (I´m obiously abusing from your lovely manners, but...)

Order of Labor Glory 3rd class #358.147
Order of Badge of Honor T4/ ¿V2 or V1? # 478959
Order of Glory 3rd class T2/V1 #277195

Thanks you again, gentelmen.

Ed Maier · 06-23-2002, 10:32 AM

Red,

From my list, the Order of Glory 3rd Class #277,xxx would be a late 1944, early 1945 award. But then again, it depends on where it was awarded.

One interesting aside about Glory 3rds, in researching then, I have found that all (in my sample of 25 or so) post war (1948 or later) awards of Orders of Glory 3rd Class were awarded for severe wounds in combat. Most of the time, the soldier was disabled from the wound and never returned to combat or was discharged from the armed forces. This has been true every time that the only award received was an Order of Glory 3rd Class.

Take care,
Ed

06-22-2002, 09:21 AM	#1
REDMAXIM2001 Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Santiago (Galicia) Spain Age: 40 Posts: 89	Dating Medals by serial # Estimated friends of the forum: I´d like info about the relation between serial # & fabrication dates of Orders & Medals. Particularly I´m interested in dating Order of Red Banner T2/V2 #75.583, Order of Red Banner T4/V1 #483.837 & Order of Red Banner of Labor T5/V2 #300.992. In any way I´d like any kind of info about this subject. Thank you so much & Excuse, please, my HORRIBLE English. Labor, Health & (peacefully) Revolution. RED MAX

06-22-2002, 07:53 PM	#5
CZ Banned Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 252	Glory & Motherland Gentleman, this may work for these orders as confering dates, but doesen't work for "Glory", "Motherland" or any other awards with serial numbers, who went in large quantities to military units (or had been produced at once: "Glory 1c"). So, less action at a certain part of a "Front" and the military units may keep more "Glory"-orders, than other units. Specially with a "Glory 1c" or a "Motherland 2c" the serial number gives no hint about the date of confering, when roughly the guy got the award. What do you think about this? Regards from Vienna

06-23-2002, 05:57 AM	#9
REDMAXIM2001 Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Santiago (Galicia) Spain Age: 40 Posts: 89	Thank you 4 info & interest in that thread. Thank you 4 info & interest in that thread. Well, I see this question about # & dates relationship is more complex that I suppossed... Here there are three new questions (I´m obiously abusing from your lovely manners, but...) Order of Labor Glory 3rd class #358.147 Order of Badge of Honor T4/ ¿V2 or V1? # 478959 Order of Glory 3rd class T2/V1 #277195 Thanks you again, gentelmen.

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06-22-2002, 10:37 AM	#2
Eugene Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NY,NY Posts: 375	Order of Red Banner T2/V2 #75.583 - august- december, 1943 Order of Red Banner T4/V1 #483.837 - 1963 - 1968 Order of Red Banner of Labor T5/V2 #300.992 - 1954-1955

06-22-2002, 04:14 PM	#3
*Nota Bene* Super Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York USA Posts: 7,185	Hola Red Max, Bienvenido al Forum. No te hagas el modesto, tu ingles es perfecto. Los datos que te interesen se pude encontrarlos en el libro de Kutsenko, que se titula "Ordenes de la URSS". Un saludo, Alexei (I was welcoming Red Max to the forum, complimenting him on his English, and telling him about the Kutsenko book)

06-22-2002, 04:34 PM	#4
REDMAXIM2001 Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Santiago (Galicia) Spain Age: 40 Posts: 89	Thank you so much, both of you, boys. Eugene: Thank you for the info & for your time. Nota Bene: Tu castellano si es perfecto, Gracias por la amable y calurosa bienvenida, but my English is corrupted (Your Spanish is perfect, Thank you for that beautiful wellcome, pero mi inglés está acabado). Red Max

06-22-2002, 08:51 PM	#7
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 40 Posts: 441	In researching over 700 groups of Soviet Orders, I have found that the serial number range/date of issue chart does not work in most cases involving any detailed infomration. The reason has already been mentioned above, and is an offshoot of the Soviet award system's structure. But in addition, you will find really strange anomolies that pop up from time to time, such as screwback Red Banners issued in late 1944 (on an active Front). I have tried to chart the serial numbers, issue date of the award, unit of the soldier and awarding unit on a spread sheet to see if any pattern would show up. After charting the awards in about 70 groups, I gave up as it was crazy. I might try to complete this as I get some free time to see if a larger sample would reveal serial number ranges awarded by specific Fronts or units, but it will take some time. Take care, Ed

06-23-2002, 12:05 AM	#8
Doug Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 86	Ed and all, I've had a similar thought. I've been contemplating a spreadsheet or db that would capture the following serial number-based information by order from researched orders or groups: Serial Number Year Awarded Month Awarded Branch of Service Front Army Corps Division Regiment Combat or Long Service My thinking is that as most orders were distributed in preserial numbered groups, there should be some trends that become apparent. Granted, I might need a pretty large sample size. I'm thinking that after a while, we might have a better idea of what awards were awarded to what front or army during what general time period. In addition, we might be able to discern blocks of long service awards, etc.. Perhaps years from now, with enough army and VVS information, we could also make assumptions as to what serial number series are missing and assume that these are series that belong to naval or political entities. No doubt a big undertaking that might not ultimately prove anything but it's interesting to think about. Just another Arizonan praying for rain... Doug

06-23-2002, 10:32 AM	#10
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 40 Posts: 441	Red, From my list, the Order of Glory 3rd Class #277,xxx would be a late 1944, early 1945 award. But then again, it depends on where it was awarded. One interesting aside about Glory 3rds, in researching then, I have found that all (in my sample of 25 or so) post war (1948 or later) awards of Orders of Glory 3rd Class were awarded for severe wounds in combat. Most of the time, the soldier was disabled from the wound and never returned to combat or was discharged from the armed forces. This has been true every time that the only award received was an Order of Glory 3rd Class. Take care, Ed

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