Dating Medals by serial # - Page 2

Ed Maier · 06-23-2002, 10:43 AM

Doug,

This is exactly the type of information that I have been gathering. Even with the large sample of awards that I have, its difficult to be able to discern information from the data. One of the problems in picking a pattern about the awarding unit, is that different awards were awarded at different unit levels. Some were authorized by regiment, some division, some corps, etc... Even when you are able to discover the particular units location at a particular time, you run into large scale transfer of units. The person might have won the award with one unit, then have been transfered to another before the recommendation was approved and awarded, and both units might have been tranfered to different Fronts or put in the reserves during the process. This is especially true if you are looking at the 1941 to 1943 time period as the Red Army was in a massive state of reorginization from both internal (Stavka) and external (German) forces.

A pattern has not emerged with wartime long service awards either. Since they were awarded by the lower units (Military Merit Medals and Red Stars), they were handed out from the common stock on hand. Higher level long serive awards (escecially Lenins) usually went to old reserve soldiers who were not at the Front. Its only in the 1950s, that you begin to see blocks of Long service awards and they are the vast majority of the awards issued.

Good luck with your list. Its a long process.

Take care,
Ed

REDMAXIM2001 · 06-23-2002, 11:11 AM

Your info it´s really interesting... & your hard Labor too...
I´d like you tell us some interesting conclussions & studies like that you refer about O fo Glory, Lenin, etc.

In Spain it´s very difficult to access info & books

Thank you

Red Max

Ed Maier · 06-23-2002, 11:58 AM

Red Max,

I wish this information was in books. I have gethered it in the course of researching orders and medals for myself and my clients. I make copies of all the research I get, so I have the Award Cards and Citations of thousands of awards on file. My pile of research stands at over 1 meter tall now, so its a ton of infomration.

I hope to be able to publish this infomration some day.

Take care,
Ed

CZ · 06-26-2002, 09:07 PM

Dear Eugene, Ed and Alexei,

I have a nice and complete group with 17 awards from Submarine-Captain 1st Rank, Ivan Nikolaijevic Kandybin.

There are two awards, where it is likely, that he got them at birthdays or at retirement:

Red Banner: 491.954 (about 1968, I think)

Red Star: 2.919.272 (definitly earlier)

Does anyone know the rough dates of issue?

Many thanks!

Regards from Vienna

Ed Maier · 06-26-2002, 10:26 PM

Christian,

Its hard to say exactly on the date, but they are both probably for long service. The Red Star is for 15 Years and the Red Banner 20 Years. Your Red Star is going to have been issued in 1949 or 1950 and the Red Banner in 1954-55. This not only fits into the general pattern of my research, but makes sense in the time schedule of rank, service time, and awards. Does he have a Military Merit Medal? My guess is that he does.

I hope this helps,
Ed

Eugene · 06-26-2002, 10:41 PM

According to my information Red Banner should have been awarded after 1969. I would say in 1970-71. Red Star in 1949-50.

Ed Maier · 06-26-2002, 11:20 PM

Eugene and Christian,

May I ask where you are getting the 1968-69 date on Red Banner #491954? Even the Kutsenko book "Ordena CCCP" lists Red Banner #552483 as a 1967 issue date and his dates are usually very skewed.

In my records (and I admitedly have a small sample), I have the following:

Red Banner #361251, issued by Ukase on 17 May 1951.
Red Banner #439447, issued by Ukase on 5 Nov, 1954.
Red Banner #447873, issued by Ukase 30 April, 1954.
Red Banner #502899, issued by Ukase on 30 Dec. 1956.
Red Banner #511768, issued by Ukase on 30 Dec. 1956.
Red Banner #528408, issued by Ukase on 30 Dec. 1956.

All of the samples come directly from the Award Lists of individuals from the archives and all are for Long Service. I have seen no deviations from the date of issue and serial number sequence in any records.

Unless I am misreading the question I see no possibility that your Red Banner was issued in 1968-69 unless it is a very unique example.

I hope this helps,
Ed

CZ · 06-27-2002, 04:57 AM

Dear Ed,
dear Eugene,

Some more awards and datas:

Red Star - 1.693.661 (1944/45?)

Service merit medal - 2.692.925 (1945?)

Red Star - 2.919.272

Red Banner - 491.954

1940 Kandybin finished the submarine-academy.

1948: Captain 3rd Rank
1956: Captain 2nd Rank
1958: Captain 1st Rank
1966: Captain 1st Rank
(from documents)

He retired from service between 1966 and 1970, because he got the Lenin-medal for civil labour and his rank is not quoted anymore in the documents (issued: Riga, Latvia).

1995 Kandybin got the 50 years anniversary medal from Russian government - was he still alive - 95 years old?

Due to the fact, that Kandybin got only a Red Star for real action in WW II, he got 1985 only a GPW 2c.

Except for the submariners in the polar region, there was not much action to be done in WW II. So Captain Kandybin's Red Star is at least something and the rest might be for 10, 15 and 20 years of good service.

His son and grandson seem to be in the USA. Son has a small enterprise in defense business (oxygen-accumulators, also jused in submarines) and grandson is in E-commerce-business and writes in magazines. Might be son: Alexander Ivanovic Kandybin. Might be grandson: Alex Kandybin.

I want to make research about Captain 1st Rank Ivan Nikolaijevic Kandybin. This is difficult: Navy, Submarines .... Some more history to Kandybin's 16 awards + 1 academy badge would be very fine.

Can anyone help me - I will cover all expenses?

Regards from Vienna

scook17 · 06-27-2002, 05:08 AM

I believe the book "ORDERS AND MEDALS OF THE USSR 1918-1991" by Sergey S. Shishov and Mikhail Muzalevsky lists serial numbers to dates.

His book, shown at http://www.autobat.narod.ru/Glov_box/Ord_med.html has a link to an 'Order of Lenin' demo which contains an example of this.

I'm waiting for my copy to arrive, so I don't know if it lists serial number vs dates, just orders of Lenins or other medals as well.

Kind Regards,
Shane Cook.

Eugene · 06-27-2002, 08:15 AM

I have info on Red Banners:
S/N Date Awardee name
484348 28.10.67 Berlin L. E.
488680 31.07.69 Kosinov P. I.
Kutsenko has many errors in his book.
According to him Red Star 3714969 was awarded during the war in Afganistan. Indeed those Red Star serial numbers were after 3 780 000. But there was always place for exception.
Shishkov and Muzalevsky just copied this information from Kutsenko.

06-23-2002, 11:11 AM	#12
REDMAXIM2001 Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Santiago (Galicia) Spain Age: 40 Posts: 89	Thanks, Ed & Please GO ON Your info it´s really interesting... & your hard Labor too... I´d like you tell us some interesting conclussions & studies like that you refer about O fo Glory, Lenin, etc. In Spain it´s very difficult to access info & books Thank you Red Max

06-26-2002, 09:07 PM	#14
CZ Banned Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 252	Issue dates? Dear Eugene, Ed and Alexei, I have a nice and complete group with 17 awards from Submarine-Captain 1st Rank, Ivan Nikolaijevic Kandybin. There are two awards, where it is likely, that he got them at birthdays or at retirement: Red Banner: 491.954 (about 1968, I think) Red Star: 2.919.272 (definitly earlier) Does anyone know the rough dates of issue? Many thanks! Regards from Vienna

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06-23-2002, 10:43 AM	#11
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 40 Posts: 441	Doug, This is exactly the type of information that I have been gathering. Even with the large sample of awards that I have, its difficult to be able to discern information from the data. One of the problems in picking a pattern about the awarding unit, is that different awards were awarded at different unit levels. Some were authorized by regiment, some division, some corps, etc... Even when you are able to discover the particular units location at a particular time, you run into large scale transfer of units. The person might have won the award with one unit, then have been transfered to another before the recommendation was approved and awarded, and both units might have been tranfered to different Fronts or put in the reserves during the process. This is especially true if you are looking at the 1941 to 1943 time period as the Red Army was in a massive state of reorginization from both internal (Stavka) and external (German) forces. A pattern has not emerged with wartime long service awards either. Since they were awarded by the lower units (Military Merit Medals and Red Stars), they were handed out from the common stock on hand. Higher level long serive awards (escecially Lenins) usually went to old reserve soldiers who were not at the Front. Its only in the 1950s, that you begin to see blocks of Long service awards and they are the vast majority of the awards issued. Good luck with your list. Its a long process. Take care, Ed

06-23-2002, 11:58 AM	#13
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 40 Posts: 441	Red Max, I wish this information was in books. I have gethered it in the course of researching orders and medals for myself and my clients. I make copies of all the research I get, so I have the Award Cards and Citations of thousands of awards on file. My pile of research stands at over 1 meter tall now, so its a ton of infomration. I hope to be able to publish this infomration some day. Take care, Ed

06-26-2002, 10:26 PM	#15
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 40 Posts: 441	Christian, Its hard to say exactly on the date, but they are both probably for long service. The Red Star is for 15 Years and the Red Banner 20 Years. Your Red Star is going to have been issued in 1949 or 1950 and the Red Banner in 1954-55. This not only fits into the general pattern of my research, but makes sense in the time schedule of rank, service time, and awards. Does he have a Military Merit Medal? My guess is that he does. I hope this helps, Ed

06-26-2002, 10:41 PM	#16
Eugene Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NY,NY Posts: 375	According to my information Red Banner should have been awarded after 1969. I would say in 1970-71. Red Star in 1949-50.

06-26-2002, 11:20 PM	#17
Ed Maier Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Frederick, MD Age: 40 Posts: 441	Eugene and Christian, May I ask where you are getting the 1968-69 date on Red Banner #491954? Even the Kutsenko book "Ordena CCCP" lists Red Banner #552483 as a 1967 issue date and his dates are usually very skewed. In my records (and I admitedly have a small sample), I have the following: Red Banner #361251, issued by Ukase on 17 May 1951. Red Banner #439447, issued by Ukase on 5 Nov, 1954. Red Banner #447873, issued by Ukase 30 April, 1954. Red Banner #502899, issued by Ukase on 30 Dec. 1956. Red Banner #511768, issued by Ukase on 30 Dec. 1956. Red Banner #528408, issued by Ukase on 30 Dec. 1956. All of the samples come directly from the Award Lists of individuals from the archives and all are for Long Service. I have seen no deviations from the date of issue and serial number sequence in any records. Unless I am misreading the question I see no possibility that your Red Banner was issued in 1968-69 unless it is a very unique example. I hope this helps, Ed

06-27-2002, 05:08 AM	#19
scook17 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 424	I believe the book "ORDERS AND MEDALS OF THE USSR 1918-1991" by Sergey S. Shishov and Mikhail Muzalevsky lists serial numbers to dates. His book, shown at http://www.autobat.narod.ru/Glov_box/Ord_med.html has a link to an 'Order of Lenin' demo which contains an example of this. I'm waiting for my copy to arrive, so I don't know if it lists serial number vs dates, just orders of Lenins or other medals as well. Kind Regards, Shane Cook.

06-27-2002, 08:15 AM	#20
Eugene Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NY,NY Posts: 375	I have info on Red Banners: S/N Date Awardee name 484348 28.10.67 Berlin L. E. 488680 31.07.69 Kosinov P. I. Kutsenko has many errors in his book. According to him Red Star 3714969 was awarded during the war in Afganistan. Indeed those Red Star serial numbers were after 3 780 000. But there was always place for exception. Shishkov and Muzalevsky just copied this information from Kutsenko.

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