Orders and medals of the USSR (Shishkov / Muzalevsky) - Page 2

***Tal Inbar*** · 10-29-2002, 03:05 PM

Muzalevsky and Shishkov wrote a good book, unfortunately, I know for a fact that 30-40% of the orders shown in the book are not original. It’s happened before when author described in the book awards that never existed. Paul writes that Red Banner 8th award with serial number 4 was observed but a half a year ago he said they never existed. Muzalevsky is very knowledgeable writer and has access to many resources but I’m not sure that the case when picture in his book v can be considered as prove.
Again, I never said they these medals didn't exist. I'm just very skeptical. Why goldplating wasn't mentioned in regulation for this medal?

***Tal Inbar*** · 10-29-2002, 03:06 PM

AMAZING!
Eugene,

I would appreceate it if you could mention HERE (or by PM if you prefare) the fake orders in the book. This information is GREATLY important to the community. One or two fakes, well...but 30%-40%??????!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please update us all!

Tal

***Tal Inbar*** · 10-29-2002, 03:06 PM

Tal,
Sorry, I didn’t mean 30-40% of the orders. I intented to say 30-40% of rare awards and rare types and variations. I didn’t say they were fakes. I said they were not original. Authors couldn’t get hold on some authentical pieces so they utilized images of the copies or even computer-generated images.

***Tal Inbar*** · 10-29-2002, 03:14 PM

Eugene,

I think it is very serious and disturbing issue. If you don't have authentic order, awarded one or you don't have it at all, it MUST be declared in the book, that's what I would have done.

This is not cheap book for beginers, and collectors rely on it, so it must be absolutly accurate, and the authors should tell if a picture is a replica, not their's, etc.

My opinion...

Eugene · 10-29-2002, 03:42 PM

Tal,
This book doesn't have the best quality photos (read Dave's feedback). Even images of original awards couldn’t be used to authentify Soviet awards. From these point of view it doesn’t make any difference if all awards are original.
You making a big deal out of that. I agree it’s the most expensive book but how many books you can name with images of only original awards.
The information makes this book desirable not the images of the awards.
Anyway, the authors don’t say they used photo of authentical awards.

k3rvmfusa · 10-30-2002, 10:04 PM

I have this set of books and find them very useful. The medal variations, in particular, are very nice to have, as well as the photos of the award citations. For the Russian reader, the appendices describing the regulations codifying the postwar practice of giving high orders and medals for years of service is very interesting.

Dolf · 10-15-2005, 12:53 AM

Gentlemen,

Is this book "Orders and Medals of the USSR 1918-1991" by Sergey Shishkov & Mikhail Muzalevsky, still considered a must for a serious Soviet Awards collector, or in the meantime was a better and more accurate reference (in English or at least in Russian AND English) published? If yes, which one? By the way, when was this book published? After PMD's "The Comprehensive Guide", right?

Art, have you bought it in the meantime? What would be your verdict?

Thanks a lot,

Dolf

Lapa · 10-15-2005, 08:11 AM

Dolf,

It was published after PMD. I have both, and I do enjoy these books quite a lot (the English text is very approximative). It is an investment, but I believe a worthwile one.
As far as I know, no other useful global reference has been published since, apart from the Mondvor site. Email me if you want to further discuss details.

Marc

Dolf · 10-15-2005, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lapa

Dolf,

It was published after PMD. I have both, and I do enjoy these books quite a lot (the English text is very approximative). It is an investment, but I believe a worthwile one.
As far as I know, no other useful global reference has been published since, apart from the Mondvor site. Email me if you want to further discuss details.

Marc

Marc,

I also do have PMD's Guide, but I'm looking for more reference books on this subject, eventually containing more detailed and/or more updated info and/or other aspects not covered on PMD's book.
From what I've read here it seems this Shishkov & Muzalevsky's book is also a must for Soviet Awards collectors.
So before moving forward I just wanted to check with the experts on the Forum if there's nothing even better and more recently published that would worth the investment.

Merci,

Dolf

***Tal Inbar*** · 10-15-2005, 06:03 PM

It's a good book to have. Just remember that the information in this book is not up to date, and there are some mistakes in it.

I have these books and am very happy with them.

Tal

10-29-2002, 03:05 PM	#11
*Tal Inbar* Marshal CCCP Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 39 Posts: 5,042	Originaly posted by EUGENE: Muzalevsky and Shishkov wrote a good book, unfortunately, I know for a fact that 30-40% of the orders shown in the book are not original. It’s happened before when author described in the book awards that never existed. Paul writes that Red Banner 8th award with serial number 4 was observed but a half a year ago he said they never existed. Muzalevsky is very knowledgeable writer and has access to many resources but I’m not sure that the case when picture in his book v can be considered as prove. Again, I never said they these medals didn't exist. I'm just very skeptical. Why goldplating wasn't mentioned in regulation for this medal? __________________ Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism!

10-29-2002, 03:06 PM	#12
*Tal Inbar* Marshal CCCP Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 39 Posts: 5,042	AMAZING! Eugene, I would appreceate it if you could mention HERE (or by PM if you prefare) the fake orders in the book. This information is GREATLY important to the community. One or two fakes, well...but 30%-40%??????!!!!!!!!!!!! Please update us all! Tal __________________ Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism!

10-29-2002, 03:06 PM	#13
*Tal Inbar* Marshal CCCP Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 39 Posts: 5,042	Originaly posted by EUGENE: Tal, Sorry, I didn’t mean 30-40% of the orders. I intented to say 30-40% of rare awards and rare types and variations. I didn’t say they were fakes. I said they were not original. Authors couldn’t get hold on some authentical pieces so they utilized images of the copies or even computer-generated images. __________________ Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism!

10-29-2002, 03:14 PM	#14
*Tal Inbar* Marshal CCCP Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 39 Posts: 5,042	Eugene, I think it is very serious and disturbing issue. If you don't have authentic order, awarded one or you don't have it at all, it MUST be declared in the book, that's what I would have done. This is not cheap book for beginers, and collectors rely on it, so it must be absolutly accurate, and the authors should tell if a picture is a replica, not their's, etc. My opinion... __________________ Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism!

10-30-2002, 10:04 PM	#16
k3rvmfusa Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Omaha, NE Posts: 138	2 Book set I have this set of books and find them very useful. The medal variations, in particular, are very nice to have, as well as the photos of the award citations. For the Russian reader, the appendices describing the regulations codifying the postwar practice of giving high orders and medals for years of service is very interesting.

10-29-2002, 03:42 PM	#15
Eugene Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NY,NY Posts: 375	Tal, This book doesn't have the best quality photos (read Dave's feedback). Even images of original awards couldn’t be used to authentify Soviet awards. From these point of view it doesn’t make any difference if all awards are original. You making a big deal out of that. I agree it’s the most expensive book but how many books you can name with images of only original awards. The information makes this book desirable not the images of the awards. Anyway, the authors don’t say they used photo of authentical awards.

10-15-2005, 12:53 AM	#17
Dolf Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lisbon, Portugal Age: 52 Posts: 1,510	Gentlemen, Is this book "Orders and Medals of the USSR 1918-1991" by Sergey Shishkov & Mikhail Muzalevsky, still considered a must for a serious Soviet Awards collector, or in the meantime was a better and more accurate reference (in English or at least in Russian AND English) published? If yes, which one? By the way, when was this book published? After PMD's "The Comprehensive Guide", right? Art, have you bought it in the meantime? What would be your verdict? Thanks a lot, Dolf

10-15-2005, 08:11 AM	#18
Lapa Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: St Petersburg, Russia Age: 47 Posts: 3,453	Dolf, It was published after PMD. I have both, and I do enjoy these books quite a lot (the English text is very approximative). It is an investment, but I believe a worthwile one. As far as I know, no other useful global reference has been published since, apart from the Mondvor site. Email me if you want to further discuss details. Marc

10-15-2005, 06:03 PM	#20
*Tal Inbar* Marshal CCCP Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Israel Age: 39 Posts: 5,042	It's a good book to have. Just remember that the information in this book is not up to date, and there are some mistakes in it. I have these books and am very happy with them. Tal __________________ Under the banner of Marxism-Leninism, under the leadership of the Communist Party--forward to new victories in the construction of communism!

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