Red Army Uniforms 1918-1945 - Page 2

otlichnik · 01-16-2003, 03:22 AM

Just to emphasize. Most of our postings on this thread have actually been about the error-filled (but with nice photos) Webster and Nelson book not/not the 1918-1945 book shown in Tal's first post.

That book (the one shown) is good. It has few if any fakes or bad stuff shown. It's main problem, as Sebastien (Charlet) points out, is it is really just a picture book - it lacks information.

To Gene, yes the 1918-1945 book SHOWS some Red Air Force uniforms but I wouldn't say it COVERS it as it lacks detailed info. That said, it is a great book and I highly recommend it.

To put it in perspective, I brought less than 10% of my Soviet military related books with me on my posting to Bosnia but I did bring that book (plus McDaniel, etc.). The Webster and Nelson book I returned without buying!

To Sebastien, is your diplom text related to the Red Army???

Shawn

charlet · 01-16-2003, 07:01 AM

Hi Shawn, no it isn't, but there's a connection with communist wolrd because it were on the CGT, the main french workers syndicate in the 50ies, very influenced by communist party.

You're right, Tal asked infos not about the Webster and Nelson. I propose to Doug, as he suggested, a new thread about the copy of the MSU parade uniform. I don't have the experience about such a piece (nor the money to invetsigate for high pieces of WW2), but I was intrigued by the difference of colour of embrodery. I just tought it was a manufacturing variation.
This is quite a very nice work for a copy, and the wool of the mundir is high-quality: could it be a real (sic) museum copy?

DougD · 01-16-2003, 07:41 AM

I do not think that the uniform itself is 100% a copy. What I think is that they took a M1945 Generals uniform and removed the embroidery. They then replaced the embroidery with Marshals embroidery, but they did not fix the collar and cuff edgings. Also, they did not do a good job with the hat embroidery.

I have photos of every marshal wearing their M1945 uniform (including the 1948 made ones) and the variations are minor at best.

I can start a new thread as soon as my scanner if fixed. I'll dig out all my old files.

DD

charlet · 01-16-2003, 08:28 AM

hi Doug, I think it could be an excellent idea, it could inform not only about marshall uniforms (everybody here has its exemplar?:D ), but above all general uniforms of 1945.
An exemple: in Paris, Montrouge, collector show, a russian brought three M1945 visor caps, two with gold embroidery, one silver embroidery. I was amazed, but reluctant about a so rare item. Experimented friends saw immediately the fakes by examination of the interior: leather shield wasn't good, a 50's one. The wool was not as thick as it should be on a M1945. Diagnostic: the faker took 3 good 50's visor caps, scratch off the embroidered visor :eek: and put an officer visor to obtain WW2 vintage. The badges were good.
Morality: 2 buyers fooled, 3 visors caps demolished! sad!:(

DougD · 01-16-2003, 10:17 AM

Yes, that happens often. They take a much less expensive M1954 generals parade hat, remove the cap badge and brim; replace with fake M1940 generals cap badge and officers brim. Thus you have a M1945 VP Generals peaked cap. If you have had a real one, its not difficult to determine the copies. But without any firsthand knowledge it can be tough to do.

DD

Gene · 01-16-2003, 10:33 AM

What, if any, Air Force uniforms and/or hats in the Webster book are suspicious? I'd like to know what may have been found to be in error or outright fake.

DougD · 01-16-2003, 11:38 AM

I don't know of any; the air force generals parade uniform is mine and is ok. There are not many air uniforms in the book, but'ill look again tonight. Most likely there would be mismatches or misidentifications. I don't remember any fakes.

otlichnik · 01-17-2003, 02:44 AM

Doug,

When you do start a new thread please include your notes on embroidery for the rest of the forum. I.e. genuine (wire or silk) vs. fake (thin tinsely junk).

Shawn

DougD · 01-17-2003, 08:54 AM

Shawn,

Will do. I found my folder of info, I just have to scan what I have. I hope to have the scanner back up by Monday and then start a thread on the way to tell the real Marshals VP uniform from the copy. Ok, so its not something most collectors will have t deal with , but maybe in the future it might come up if another pops up.

DD

01-16-2003, 07:01 AM	#12
charlet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 791	let's start a new thread? Hi Shawn, no it isn't, but there's a connection with communist wolrd because it were on the CGT, the main french workers syndicate in the 50ies, very influenced by communist party. You're right, Tal asked infos not about the Webster and Nelson. I propose to Doug, as he suggested, a new thread about the copy of the MSU parade uniform. I don't have the experience about such a piece (nor the money to invetsigate for high pieces of WW2), but I was intrigued by the difference of colour of embrodery. I just tought it was a manufacturing variation. This is quite a very nice work for a copy, and the wool of the mundir is high-quality: could it be a real (sic) museum copy?

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01-16-2003, 03:22 AM	#11
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	Just to emphasize. Most of our postings on this thread have actually been about the error-filled (but with nice photos) Webster and Nelson book not/not the 1918-1945 book shown in Tal's first post. That book (the one shown) is good. It has few if any fakes or bad stuff shown. It's main problem, as Sebastien (Charlet) points out, is it is really just a picture book - it lacks information. To Gene, yes the 1918-1945 book SHOWS some Red Air Force uniforms but I wouldn't say it COVERS it as it lacks detailed info. That said, it is a great book and I highly recommend it. To put it in perspective, I brought less than 10% of my Soviet military related books with me on my posting to Bosnia but I did bring that book (plus McDaniel, etc.). The Webster and Nelson book I returned without buying! To Sebastien, is your diplom text related to the Red Army??? Shawn

01-16-2003, 07:41 AM	#13
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 50 Posts: 2,060	I do not think that the uniform itself is 100% a copy. What I think is that they took a M1945 Generals uniform and removed the embroidery. They then replaced the embroidery with Marshals embroidery, but they did not fix the collar and cuff edgings. Also, they did not do a good job with the hat embroidery. I have photos of every marshal wearing their M1945 uniform (including the 1948 made ones) and the variations are minor at best. I can start a new thread as soon as my scanner if fixed. I'll dig out all my old files. DD

01-16-2003, 08:28 AM	#14
charlet Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Age: 49 Posts: 791	hi Doug, I think it could be an excellent idea, it could inform not only about marshall uniforms (everybody here has its exemplar?:D ), but above all general uniforms of 1945. An exemple: in Paris, Montrouge, collector show, a russian brought three M1945 visor caps, two with gold embroidery, one silver embroidery. I was amazed, but reluctant about a so rare item. Experimented friends saw immediately the fakes by examination of the interior: leather shield wasn't good, a 50's one. The wool was not as thick as it should be on a M1945. Diagnostic: the faker took 3 good 50's visor caps, scratch off the embroidered visor :eek: and put an officer visor to obtain WW2 vintage. The badges were good. Morality: 2 buyers fooled, 3 visors caps demolished! sad!:(

01-16-2003, 10:17 AM	#15
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 50 Posts: 2,060	Yes, that happens often. They take a much less expensive M1954 generals parade hat, remove the cap badge and brim; replace with fake M1940 generals cap badge and officers brim. Thus you have a M1945 VP Generals peaked cap. If you have had a real one, its not difficult to determine the copies. But without any firsthand knowledge it can be tough to do. DD

01-16-2003, 10:33 AM	#16
Gene Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 34	What, if any, Air Force uniforms and/or hats in the Webster book are suspicious? I'd like to know what may have been found to be in error or outright fake.

01-16-2003, 11:38 AM	#17
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 50 Posts: 2,060	I don't know of any; the air force generals parade uniform is mine and is ok. There are not many air uniforms in the book, but'ill look again tonight. Most likely there would be mismatches or misidentifications. I don't remember any fakes.

01-17-2003, 02:44 AM	#18
otlichnik Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Age: 56 Posts: 547	Doug, When you do start a new thread please include your notes on embroidery for the rest of the forum. I.e. genuine (wire or silk) vs. fake (thin tinsely junk). Shawn

01-17-2003, 08:54 AM	#19
DougD Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NJ Age: 50 Posts: 2,060	Shawn, Will do. I found my folder of info, I just have to scan what I have. I hope to have the scanner back up by Monday and then start a thread on the way to tell the real Marshals VP uniform from the copy. Ok, so its not something most collectors will have t deal with , but maybe in the future it might come up if another pops up. DD

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